especially to the generation that came up after his story was well known that his organization the anc was not a non-violent organization. it was rough and he surrounded himself with some rough people. >> right. he started out being non-violent. and when he realized that the anc wasn't getting anywhere close to its mission, the group of leaders of the anc decided we need to become a military organization. and he started spear of the nation which was the military wing of the anc. and he taught himself. he read generals. he read caesar. he learned that like he learned everything. and it went against his grain, but again, as i was saying before, he had one overarching goal. and whatever got to that goal, he would do. even embracing violence. as you showed earlier, he refused to not embrace violence to get out of prison. because he said i can't negotiate while i'm in prison. that was the leverage he had. and he understood that. >> when you're in south africa as you know better than most, you don't hear mandela as much as you hear madiba. and as i was saying to charlayne, it's parental, it'